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Non-Riveted overalls (1850's-1900)

Printed From: denimbro
Category: Denimbro
Forum Name: Denim/workwear research
Forum Description: historical
URL: http://www.denimbro.com/forum_posts.asp?TID=4296
Printed Date: 20 Sep 2020 at 6:45am
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 11.10 - http://www.webwizforums.com


Topic: Non-Riveted overalls (1850's-1900)
Posted By: Sansome
Subject: Non-Riveted overalls (1850's-1900)
Date Posted: 11 Jan 2020 at 12:10am
Pretend this didn't have a label- then ask me back in 2009- Who made this?
My answer would have been Boss of the Road (Neuatdater Bro's)
Clearly by the early to mid 1880's- This was Levi's main style of pant that competed with them.
We have- for lack of a better word, referred to this as a dart stitch.
https://flic.kr/p/2idfZWE" rel="nofollow"> https://flic.kr/p/2idfZWE" rel="nofollow - 616 by https://www.flickr.com/photos/52982610@N06/" rel="nofollow - bottleswest , on Flickr

https://flic.kr/p/2idindr" rel="nofollow"> https://flic.kr/p/2idindr" rel="nofollow - 612 by https://www.flickr.com/photos/52982610@N06/" rel="nofollow - bottleswest , on Flickr

Dirty stinking pack rat bastards- looks more like a shark bite. https://flic.kr/p/2idfZRz" rel="nofollow"> https://flic.kr/p/2idfZRz" rel="nofollow - 613 by https://www.flickr.com/photos/52982610@N06/" rel="nofollow - bottleswest , on Flickr

4 times out of 10- you will see that a miner doesn't  like any back pockets, probably some old school guy- doesn't like sitting on rocks in his back pockets?







Replies:
Posted By: Sansome
Date Posted: 11 Jan 2020 at 12:20am
Almost every company that we have seen, making this style of dart stitch pant-
uses this style cinch strap configuration.

https://flic.kr/p/2idfZM1" rel="nofollow"> https://flic.kr/p/2idfZM1" rel="nofollow - 611 by https://www.flickr.com/photos/52982610@N06/" rel="nofollow - bottleswest , on Flickr

We have searched California trade marks-we searched federal trademarks.
So far- we have been unable to put a name to the company making these pants.
The letters JB are woven in the middle of the horse shoe.

https://flic.kr/p/2idjsMX" rel="nofollow"> https://flic.kr/p/2idjsMX" rel="nofollow - 615 by https://www.flickr.com/photos/52982610@N06/" rel="nofollow - bottleswest , on Flickr

https://flic.kr/p/2idg4bL" rel="nofollow"> https://flic.kr/p/2idg4bL" rel="nofollow - 617 by https://www.flickr.com/photos/52982610@N06/" rel="nofollow - bottleswest , on Flickr
Replacement fly button. This pant dates some time before 1883- It has hand sewn
button holes.


Posted By: Sansome
Date Posted: 11 Jan 2020 at 12:34am
Lo https://flic.kr/p/2idiZVu" rel="nofollow"> https://flic.kr/p/2idiZVu" rel="nofollow - 619 by https://www.flickr.com/photos/52982610@N06/" rel="nofollow - bottleswest , on Flickrom chatter


https://flic.kr/p/2idk6Gt" rel="nofollow"> https://flic.kr/p/2idk6Gt" rel="nofollow - 620 by https://www.flickr.com/photos/52982610@N06/" rel="nofollow - bottleswest , on Flickr

Most Likely- XX Amoskeag denim, and there's a good chance it's long staple cotton.


https://flic.kr/p/2idiqvP" rel="nofollow"> https://flic.kr/p/2idiqvP" rel="nofollow - 618 by https://www.flickr.com/photos/52982610@N06/" rel="nofollow - bottleswest , on Flickr

Most companies like this one, uses some sort of felled seam on the yoke.

Levi might be the only company that uses an open yoke seam up until 1893-94


Posted By: Sansome
Date Posted: 12 Jan 2020 at 12:36am
Boss of the Road- first label
Pants should date to the late 1882-84
https://flic.kr/p/2idLr19" rel="nofollow"> https://flic.kr/p/2idLr19" rel="nofollow - 446 by https://www.flickr.com/photos/52982610@N06/" rel="nofollow - bottleswest , on Flickr
https://flic.kr/p/2idLr3Z" rel="nofollow"> https://flic.kr/p/2idLr3Z" rel="nofollow - 444 by https://www.flickr.com/photos/52982610@N06/" rel="nofollow - bottleswest , on Flickr

https://flic.kr/p/2idNLDG" rel="nofollow"> https://flic.kr/p/2idNLDG" rel="nofollow - 447 by https://www.flickr.com/photos/52982610@N06/" rel="nofollow - bottleswest , on Flickr

https://flic.kr/p/2idPQsh" rel="nofollow"> https://flic.kr/p/2idPQsh" rel="nofollow - 445 by https://www.flickr.com/photos/52982610@N06/" rel="nofollow - bottleswest , on Flickr


Posted By: buler
Date Posted: 14 Jan 2020 at 6:39am
Mike, I found some reference to a Good Luck Clothing company in What Cheer, Iowa. Seems to have been around in the late 1800s, sold out in 1901.  What Cheer was a coal mining town. There was also a Good Luck Shoe and Clothing Co in Butte, Montana. But from the look of their ads they were more shoes and formal clothing.

Cheers,
B


Posted By: Sansome
Date Posted: 14 Jan 2020 at 9:25am
Originally posted by buler buler wrote:

Mike, I found some reference to a Good Luck Clothing company in What Cheer, Iowa. Seems to have been around in the late 1800s, sold out in 1901.  What Cheer was a coal mining town. There was also a Good Luck Shoe and Clothing Co in Butte, Montana. But from the look of their ads they were more shoes and formal clothing.

Cheers,
B


Thx buler- great to have you on the case.
Most of the time, but not always, if these companies are based in NY or SF
they will have NY & SF on the label.
It made us think when we found them, this might be a pant from either of these states.
Still unsure what makes these pants patented?
So it looks like we should do a trademark search in Iowa, this might shed a little light on the JB in the horseshoe?


Posted By: Sansome
Date Posted: 14 Jan 2020 at 10:11pm
Thought i should post this here- its the first time i noticed Boston Mass at the top of the billhead?

https://flic.kr/p/2ibfcXX" rel="nofollow"> https://flic.kr/p/2ibfcXX" rel="nofollow - thumbnail 37 by https://www.flickr.com/photos/52982610@N06/" rel="nofollow - bottleswest , on Flickr


Posted By: buler
Date Posted: 15 Jan 2020 at 5:34am
Maybe that's a J and W (not JB) in the horseshoe. Could stand for Joseph Whitman who is listed as running the firm of Coburn & Whitman.

B


Posted By: Sansome
Date Posted: 15 Jan 2020 at 8:15am
Originally posted by buler buler wrote:

Maybe that's a J and W (not JB) in the horseshoe. Could stand for Joseph Whitman who is listed as running the firm of Coburn & Whitman.

B


I like that explanation- but I can’t make out a W- in the two letters in the middle of the horseshoe- what looks like a B, connects on both sides.


Posted By: Sansome
Date Posted: 15 Jan 2020 at 9:40am
Question for you buler- if you trademark in one state, can another company take out the same wording in another state?
We would be talking late 1870’s - early 1880’s


Posted By: rayw44
Date Posted: 15 Jan 2020 at 10:39am
Sansome - Trademark law is crazy in the US. I know enough about it to be dangerous and I don't practice in that area of law at all, but from what I recall from law school that trademark would have been protected in all 50 states.

The problem is that trademarks aren't self-enforcing, meaning someone can use it in another state for the exact same product without repercussion unless you sue them and stop them. 

At that time, I would bet there was plenty of inadvertent trademark overlap for common names, initials, and words, but the lack of real competition from an out of state competitor meant no one ever enforced the trademarks outside of their usual sales territory.


Posted By: Sansome
Date Posted: 15 Jan 2020 at 2:51pm
Thanks ray for that explanation of the law- now I wonder if that would include territories too?


Posted By: Sansome
Date Posted: 15 Jan 2020 at 11:08pm
late 1880's early 90's check jacket, this one's from- the 2 miners collection we found a few years back. It's hard to see, this one's a double pleated- 1 pocket.
In 2015- we found a brown check jacket, with no pleats.
https://flic.kr/p/2ifGwCW" rel="nofollow"> https://flic.kr/p/2ifGwCW" rel="nofollow - cj2 by https://www.flickr.com/photos/52982610@N06/" rel="nofollow - bottleswest , on Flickr

https://flic.kr/p/2ifGwJc" rel="nofollow"> https://flic.kr/p/2ifGwJc" rel="nofollow - cj1 by https://www.flickr.com/photos/52982610@N06/" rel="nofollow - bottleswest , on Flickr

My oldest daughter- wearing it.


Posted By: Sansome
Date Posted: 13 Apr 2020 at 10:14pm
https://flic.kr/p/2iQ8DvT" rel="nofollow"> https://flic.kr/p/2iQ8DvT" rel="nofollow - botr by https://www.flickr.com/photos/52982610@N06/" rel="nofollow - bottleswest , on Flickr

Here is the 1882-83 Boss of the Road pants we found 2 months ago, BOTR is on bottom-
late 1870's Sach's and Heller on top, The pant on top is listed as- Boss of the road in Jeans
of the old west. Both pants are dart stitched,  on the pocket corners.

https://flic.kr/p/2iQ8Duf" rel="nofollow"> https://flic.kr/p/2iQ8Duf" rel="nofollow - botr1 by https://www.flickr.com/photos/52982610@N06/" rel="nofollow - bottleswest , on Flickr

https://flic.kr/p/2iQd5bF" rel="nofollow"> https://flic.kr/p/2iQd5bF" rel="nofollow - botr2 by https://www.flickr.com/photos/52982610@N06/" rel="nofollow - bottleswest , on Flickr

So far- every 1860's and 70's pant we have come across, has only one design stitch on the front pockets- when you get into the 80's, double design stitches is what you see above ^^^^

https://flic.kr/p/2iQbnBq" rel="nofollow"> https://flic.kr/p/2iQbnBq" rel="nofollow - botr6 by https://www.flickr.com/photos/52982610@N06/" rel="nofollow - bottleswest , on Flickr

https://flic.kr/p/2iQbo5E" rel="nofollow"> https://flic.kr/p/2iQbo5E" rel="nofollow - botr4 by https://www.flickr.com/photos/52982610@N06/" rel="nofollow - bottleswest , on Flickr

One piece fly on the Boss of the Road pants on bottom- we should have known by the 2 piece fly
on top, we should have known that it wasn't BOTR.
https://flic.kr/p/2iQ8Do3" rel="nofollow"> https://flic.kr/p/2iQ8Do3" rel="nofollow - botr5 by https://www.flickr.com/photos/52982610@N06/" rel="nofollow - bottleswest , on Flickr

close up of the 2 piece fly
https://flic.kr/p/2iQbo78" rel="nofollow"> https://flic.kr/p/2iQbo78" rel="nofollow - botr3 by https://www.flickr.com/photos/52982610@N06/" rel="nofollow - bottleswest , on Flickr

Hand sewn on the left- Machine sewn on the right.
The dedicated Reese Button hole machine came out in 1882
We assume that the Standard shirt factory of the NB bros,
Would be using this button hole machine in 1882?
https://flic.kr/p/2iQd4Me" rel="nofollow"> https://flic.kr/p/2iQd4Me" rel="nofollow - botr9 by https://www.flickr.com/photos/52982610@N06/" rel="nofollow - bottleswest , on Flickr

https://flic.kr/p/2iQbnXf" rel="nofollow"> https://flic.kr/p/2iQbnXf" rel="nofollow - botr11 by https://www.flickr.com/photos/52982610@N06/" rel="nofollow - bottleswest , on Flickr
https://flic.kr/p/2iQd4FN" rel="nofollow"> https://flic.kr/p/2iQd4FN" rel="nofollow - botr14 by https://www.flickr.com/photos/52982610@N06/" rel="nofollow - bottleswest , on Flickr

NB Trademark first patch/Label
https://flic.kr/p/2iQbnZQ" rel="nofollow"> https://flic.kr/p/2iQbnZQ" rel="nofollow - botr10 by https://www.flickr.com/photos/52982610@N06/" rel="nofollow - bottleswest , on Flickr

First label- WE found this pant in the first workings of this mine we were in-
We knew there had to be pants somewhere- 3 months and 6 trips later
we found them. This dude was tall for this time- tag size 36w 35L








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