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LVC analysis

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Topic: LVC analysis
Posted By: mr randal
Subject: LVC analysis
Date Posted: 27 Oct 2012 at 5:14pm
Sansome and I talked it over and decided it would be a good idea to document and discuss the accuracy of all the LVC denim and duck models, starting with the earliest repros. Obviously this will take some time. Dr_Heech and I compared notes and I think I have a comprehensive list of the relevant releases.
 A couple things first:
 Sometimes these discussions get heated, which is great, but let's not actually call each other names over the historical accuracy of LVC.
 Let's be respectful of LVC as well. They have made obvious mistakes over the years, and it's fine to point that out here, but some mistakes were based on lack of data and archival garments, while others were based on financial considerations or, occasionally I suppose, carelessness. Let's give the benefit of the doubt.
 For the earliest stuff, Sansome & non-riveted have collected a lot of relevant garments that shed new light on these, so this could be a learning experience for Levi's & LVC as well as Denimbros.
 I figure when we get to around the 1920s other experts will take over from NR & S, as this is getting outside of their period of interest.

First up is a denim 1873 repro. This should represent Levi's very earliest riveted pant. This example was made at Taylor Togs in 2007 from Japanese natural indigo denim. There is another repo called the "Oldest Oldest" which more closely represents the earliest Levi's- be patient and keep that in mind while we're looking at this one, which was LVC's first attempt at reproing Levi's first riveted pant. We'll get to the "Oldest Oldest" in a moment.
















Replies:
Posted By: mr randal
Date Posted: 27 Oct 2012 at 5:20pm



















Posted By: Dr_Heech
Date Posted: 27 Oct 2012 at 11:59pm
Call each other names!?!  Come on Randy, we're far too mature on this board for that malarky. 
I like that pair anyway.  Compared to the earlier, Valencia St versions.  The arcuate is definately more representitive of those early models for a start (also the originals only has three fly buttons, not four I believe).  I think overall, the 1873 model has improved gradually over the years  
Here's a pair from 1998, notice the shallower arc.
 
 
 
 


Posted By: mr randal
Date Posted: 28 Oct 2012 at 9:56am
Ah- I didn't realize the 1873 had changed over the years. Any other differences between the 2007 & 1998 model that you see, Heech?

 And what are the various released version of this model- a raw natural indigo version from both 1998 and 2007, a washed version from 2000 (pictured below) and was there a raw synthetic indigo release from 1999 or 2000? That sounds familiar…







Posted By: Dr_Heech
Date Posted: 28 Oct 2012 at 10:09am
Yeah those are the natural indigo.  There was a synthetic indigo version of the 1873, made around 1999/9, which had the '822' code, instead of the usual '555'.
There was also a distressed wash around 99/2000 and another like the one you have pictured, from the same time with the patches, but some of them were tan leather or corduroy I think?

 

Just noticed the 2006 ones you posted haven't got the flattened rivets like the 1998 ones.

 


Posted By: setterman
Date Posted: 28 Oct 2012 at 11:56am
Really looking forward to some details about the early models.  And I'll be on my best behavior, at least for the early models.  Wink   The post WWII models should be examples of reproduction perfection!    

As a side note, gave my '47s another wash today hoping they'd lose another inch in inseam.  No such luck, they're stalled out at 32" (tagged 34).  I guess I'm going to have to pay to have them hemmed. Cry 


-------------
I got a rocket in my pocket and roll in my jeans


Posted By: Shorty Long
Date Posted: 28 Oct 2012 at 12:14pm
yes...we should also try as best we can to document the changes of a particular model over the years...it's pretty interesting to think about how much LVC itself has "evolved"


Posted By: mr randal
Date Posted: 28 Oct 2012 at 12:29pm
Moved all posts to this new thread so as not to deter people talking about regular LVC stuff.


Posted By: Dr_Heech
Date Posted: 28 Oct 2012 at 2:21pm
Dont know about you guys, but I was really excited about this model when it first came out.  I first saw them in Cinch; they were the synthetic/darker mode.l  I remember just picking up a pair and staring at them in awe.  I'd never even seen a photo of an original pair, but here I was able to actually buy a pair of THEE first Levi's.  Raw/New.  In my size  ( .. allegedly )
I just stared at the patch for some twenty minutes, whilst some 'expert' told me how the patch was reproduced from several scraps which came from several pairs.. etc
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
(I didn't buy them in the end, as when I returned to the shop two weeks later, I was swayed by the release of the '33 model, and the added safety of beltloops). 
 
 


Posted By: colgems1966
Date Posted: 28 Oct 2012 at 6:16pm
the 33 doesn't get much love but i think it is one of their better releases and has THE best looking arcs of any model IMO.


Posted By: Dr_Heech
Date Posted: 29 Oct 2012 at 12:13am
Originally posted by colgems1966 colgems1966 wrote:

the 33 doesn't get much love but i think it is one of their better releases and has THE best looking arcs of any model IMO.
 
 
Thanks Bob, We'll get to the '33 eventually, but for now any thoughts on the 1873?  What did you think when it was first released?


Posted By: Maynard Fried-San
Date Posted: 29 Oct 2012 at 12:34am
We need Pablo T's input. He's the only one here old enough to remember both the original Levi's model release and the 1873 LVC reissue!


Posted By: colgems1966
Date Posted: 29 Oct 2012 at 6:50am
well to be honest while i respect what they are, to be truthful i didn't pay much attention. it's just a personal thing but my interest doesn't come online until the 1901 models and after. it's simply a practical matter as i feel i need two back pockets and prefer belt loops. i couldn't add much to the discussion until the 20's models and after.


Posted By: Sansome
Date Posted: 29 Oct 2012 at 7:29am
When was the first model of the 1873 produced- 1999-2000? This looks like a interpretation of what Levi thought a 1873 pant would have looked like, it seem like they took their Calico pant that was found by the woman combing the Calico mines in 1948....They put patent rivets and the label off the kids duck pant in Pablo T's book and called it a day....The 1873 is really a 1893xx with patent rivets and a label off a pair of duck pants from 1891-92


Posted By: mr randal
Date Posted: 29 Oct 2012 at 9:09am
The LVC denim 1873 does look almost exactly like the LVC 1890- it doesn't have the really early details sansome & Nonriveted have found on most very early Levi's:

Selvedge line in waist band
Sew on suspender and fly buttons
Centered leather patch
Simplified stitching on cinch
Non riveted cinch
Hammered rivet heads
Denim pocket bags

Thanks Sansome, for breaking down the actual period details so clearly:
LVC denim 1873 = 1893 501 with some earlier details.



Posted By: mr randal
Date Posted: 29 Oct 2012 at 9:16am
The 1873 does also have a rougher look to the construction than the 1890, which looks a lot neater and with nicely finished seams.
Aside from the structural details- what do you that have the natural indigo 1873 think of the denim? It is a bit on the light side, but I do like the faint green cast.

The cut of these early models is really compelling to me- I love the high waist, fuller seat, and trim legs. Probably my favorite jean cut (1873-1890).


Posted By: illumin8em
Date Posted: 29 Oct 2012 at 4:16pm
Originally posted by mr randal mr randal wrote:


The cut of these early models is really compelling to me- I love the high waist, fuller seat, and trim legs. Probably my favorite jean cut (1873-1890).


I agree. I am hoping for the opportunity to try a pair out on my body type in the future.


Posted By: mr randal
Date Posted: 29 Oct 2012 at 6:03pm
To illustrate Sansome's point about the design sources for the 1873:


This is the Calico jean, until the Nevada jean this was apparently the oldest denim pant Levi's had in their archive. The image is from pabloTs book. Levi's dated this at about 1890.


This is the boys duck pant that Levi's had in their archive at that time. (photo from BOON vintage) Levis dated this at around 1880.

LVC 1873 model is based on the Calico (the oldest levi pant the designers had seen in 1998, when this was created) with details walked backward in time based on other garments (like the tag from the boys duck pant) and documentation of other details.

Or so I understand it. Si or no, Sansome?




Posted By: Sansome
Date Posted: 29 Oct 2012 at 6:36pm
I had a chance to see a close up picture of the leather label that's on these duck pants, this is the same wording label that LVC puts on all their reproduction pants that date before the two horse brand....there is a problem with this label, it says every pair guaranteed. We know now that every pair or every garment guaranteed didn't come on labels until sometime after 1891. I've brought this issue up with the good folks over at LVC and there should be some changes in the future?


Posted By: mr randal
Date Posted: 31 Oct 2012 at 12:06am




The 2007 LVC 1873s. The fit seems exactly the same as the 1890- I have one of each in the same size, I'll measure them and compare tomorrow.

The point of this thread is to discuss how accurate the various models are, but for the 1873 that isn't really possible, as this isn't really a repro. It's more of an educated guess what a 1873 Levi's denim pant might have looked like based on later models.
 How close might it be? Until someone documents a 1873 Levi's jean and posts really good pictures of the details, impossible to say.
 



Posted By: Nonriveted
Date Posted: 18 Nov 2012 at 6:25pm
posted for Sansome...text to follow






Posted By: Bob Dale
Date Posted: 18 Nov 2012 at 7:49pm
BEAUTIFUL, Non-Riveted I do believe you've made my day.


Posted By: Sansome
Date Posted: 18 Nov 2012 at 8:58pm
So here are the details you would expect to see on a 1873 pair of Levi's....small unriveted cinch straps...unbranded rivets (we have physical evidence that Levi used unbranded rivets in the beginning ) Large watch pocket on the waistband....No arcs on the back pocket...small center patch....Duck or denim pocket bags...Hand sewn button holes....selvage waistband...A 1870's crotch stitch, jeans of the old westhave a few examples...hand sewn buttons...single needle yolk...I was told the technical term for the seam that runs up the middle of the rear? This pant above has a single needle stitch on the rear middle seam( I've only seen this single needle rear seam one other time) I think that's about it, maybe when I get on a computer screen to read this- I'll see something I missed


Posted By: Sansome
Date Posted: 18 Nov 2012 at 11:01pm
Originally posted by Dr_Heech Dr_Heech wrote:

Call each other names!?!  Come on Randy, we're far too mature on this board for that malarky. 
I like that pair anyway.  Compared to the earlier, Valencia St versions.  The arcuate is definately more representitive of those early models for a start (also the originals only has three fly buttons, not four I believe).  I think overall, the 1873 model has improved gradually over the years  

Here's a pair from 1998, notice the shallower arc.

 


 

 

 



I have a piece of Levi from what looks to me to be one of the first arcs put on- its shallow like this one^^^^


Posted By: mr randal
Date Posted: 19 Nov 2012 at 10:14am
That really points out how the LVC denim 1873 differs from an actual 1873 pant.

The yoke is the patch of material in the back below the waist band that is added in to improve the fit, making the ass of the pants rounder and more 3-d. The yoke seam is the horizontal(ish) seams that run from the side seam down to the rear rise seam on each side.

Taking them in the order in which LVC dates their reprod, next ill post the 1873 duck pants, followed by the 1873 duck jacket & vest, then the 1874 duck jacket. Unless anyone can suggest a better order?


Posted By: Sardine
Date Posted: 19 Nov 2012 at 11:17am
mr randal..thanks for this thread, I'm new to this (selvedge denim) and am finding this very informative. 


Posted By: mr randal
Date Posted: 19 Nov 2012 at 8:35pm
Sansome's computer has died, so he is having trouble posting images. I'm posting some things he sent me today with his comentary. These images relate to comparing the details of c. 1873 Levi's pants and the LVC 1873 repro.



 I'm not sure what the far left duck pant is, but starting with the second one in from the left- "1873 watch pocket, then a 1873-74 watch pocket, far right watch pocket from early 1891."
 The LVC 1873 pant, modeled after a archived c.1890 pant, does not have the correct small coin pocket riveted up on the waist band.


1873 crotch stitch (right) and 1891 crotch stitch (left). The LVC 1873 has the later stitching, where the stitching does not go under the rivet, as in the earlier pant.


1873 cinch strap (above) and 1891 cinch strap (below). The LVC 1873 has the later detailing with larger cinch base and rivet.

There are some more details Sansome sent me, but the gist is that the details of the LVC 1873 match that of a Levi pant from around 1890, as Sansome said earlier.



Posted By: mr randal
Date Posted: 19 Nov 2012 at 8:36pm
Originally posted by Sardine Sardine wrote:

mr randal..thanks for this thread, I'm new to this (selvedge denim) and am finding this very informative. 

You're entirely welcome.


Posted By: mr randal
Date Posted: 19 Nov 2012 at 8:39pm
Additionally, it makes me very sad that LVC has held off on reproing Mike's 1873 pant, pictured above. They already had the prototype made out of a nice, newly developed 2 x 1 denim.
 So close!
 Maybe next year?


Posted By: Cinch
Date Posted: 19 Nov 2012 at 8:43pm
Great thread guys. Thanks for adding all of your research.


Posted By: Sansome
Date Posted: 19 Nov 2012 at 9:53pm
Originally posted by mr randal mr randal wrote:



To illustrate Sansome's point about the design sources for the 1873:


This is the Calico jean, until the Nevada jean this was apparently the oldest denim pant Levi's had in their archive. The image is from pabloTs book. Levi's dated this at about 1890.


This is the boys duck pant that Levi's had in their archive at that time. (photo from BOON vintage) Levis dated this at around 1880.

LVC 1873 model is based on the Calico (the oldest levi pant the designers had seen in 1998, when this was created) with details walked backward in time based on other garments (like the tag from the boys duck pant) and documentation of other details.

Or so I understand it. Si or no, Sansome?







I know it gets confusing when I refer to the Calico pant pictured above as being from 1893 and not from 1890 like they are listed....We have found and seen enough 1890 and 91 Levi pants to say the 1890 Calico pants pictured above are not from 1890...Levi's from 1890-91 didn't have a double needle yolk, they didn't have a non selvage waist band....they didn't have a triangle stitch to fasten the buckle... And they didn't have lot numbers, I hope this isn't confusing


Posted By: Dr_Heech
Date Posted: 19 Nov 2012 at 10:26pm

Not confusing at all, thanks for posting.  Some great info on the early stuff.  

My Lvc '1890' repros from 2005 have hammered rivets that just say L.S.& co, would those details be accurate to 1893--- ? 


Posted By: Sansome
Date Posted: 19 Nov 2012 at 10:43pm
Originally posted by Dr_Heech Dr_Heech wrote:

Not confusing at all, thanks for posting.  Some great info on the early stuff.  


My Lvc '1890' repros from 2005 have hammered rivets that just say L.S.& co, would those details be accurate to 1893--- ? 

Well a mid to late 1890 rivet should look the same as a 1893 rivet...it looks like when the Levi factory that was set up in the late 1880's...on Freemont st, they seem to be using a different tool to apply the rivet...we find dimples on the top of the rivet post for the first time starting in the late 1880's.... The earliest mention of Women working in the Freemont street factory is June 1889.....I think I have rivet pics on the Levi research thread?I hope this helps


Posted By: Dr_Heech
Date Posted: 20 Nov 2012 at 9:30am
Sorry, they say L.S & Co - S.F. and they have the thinner dashes in between.  Here's a pic -
 


Posted By: Sansome
Date Posted: 21 Nov 2012 at 11:36am
That rivet looks pretty close to the original....it's from 2005?


Posted By: Dr_Heech
Date Posted: 21 Nov 2012 at 11:51am
Originally posted by Sansome Sansome wrote:

That rivet looks pretty close to the original....it's from 2005?
 
Yes, the 2005 edition had these rivets, hammered at time of manufacture, with 'inpure' nickle metal suspender buttons (actually they look like they just had a splash of enamel paint appliedConfused) -
 
 
Beautifull details, especially the pocket arc -
 
 
The two-horse patch would've had the 'Lot 501XX W/L' underneath the 'Every garment guaranteed' or not? 
 
 
Watch pocket is lower than waistband -
 
 
And the waistband is a two-piece with no selvedge -
 
 
 
The kurabo denim is a slightly greener cast than other editions.  Tagged 34/36, measures 36/36.
 
 


Posted By: Sansome
Date Posted: 21 Nov 2012 at 12:11pm
Well that's the wrong two horse brand, I've said it before that the two horse brand was drawn 5 different ways and this one on your repros didn't come around until after 1909-12 ( I don't have the exact date yet) every garment guaranteed didn't come on the label until late 1891 or 92 and lot numbers are not seen on tags until sometime after late 1891.... I have a repro like yours but I think mine was made later that yours....I'll put it next to my 1891 #2's


Posted By: mr randal
Date Posted: 21 Nov 2012 at 12:36pm
Sorry Sansome, I have been referring to the Calico pant as a 1890 model, forgetting you dated it to 1893.




Posted By: Dr_Heech
Date Posted: 21 Nov 2012 at 12:42pm
Thanks Mike, I thought the patch wasn't accurate after reading your updates on the denim research thread. 
Fyi my 1890's also have blueline selvedge Confused
 
 


Posted By: mr randal
Date Posted: 21 Nov 2012 at 12:44pm
Next: LVCs 1873 duck pant. This model is the Valencia street pair, from 2000.




















Posted By: Dr_Heech
Date Posted: 21 Nov 2012 at 12:46pm
Never liked that felt-tip pen they used for sizing the labels.


Posted By: mr randal
Date Posted: 21 Nov 2012 at 1:00pm



Leather washer on inside of back pocket rivets and right front pocket side seam connection ONLY.










Half selvedge outseam. Front part has selvedge, rear section is overlock stitched, though the rear section also has the black guide line at the proper distance from the sewn edge.







Posted By: Sansome
Date Posted: 21 Nov 2012 at 3:07pm
From the outside...those are a really nice copy....Modeled after the kids duck pants in Paul T's book....I'm saying those pants are from 1891-92 because the label says every pair guaranteed.


Posted By: silencejoe
Date Posted: 22 Nov 2012 at 4:43pm
1873 DUCK













The others include "the Oldest Oldest<--
not sure about the year should be 1870 repro according to the tag"-2008, "1880 repro Knappave",  1873 DUCK repro


 








 


Posted By: Sansome
Date Posted: 22 Nov 2012 at 5:35pm
The knapava tool pocket or what ever you want to call it is from the mid to late 1880's.... Oldest oldest is from or could be from the late 1870's....the yolk less duck pants are from 1873 and as far as I can tell.... When they made the repro they put branded rivets and suspender buttons plus a arc on the back... The original duck pants that are in the archive have blank rivets and suspender buttons and no arcs on the back pocket.


Posted By: entertainment!
Date Posted: 25 Nov 2012 at 5:06pm
Sansome, do the original 1873 ducks really have no yoke?  I haven't ever seen any pictures of the original.  Have any been published?


Posted By: Sansome
Date Posted: 25 Nov 2012 at 6:15pm
Originally posted by entertainment! entertainment! wrote:

Sansome, do the original 1873 ducks really have no yoke?  I haven't ever seen any pictures of the original.  Have any been published?

Yes they don't have a yolk and I think the reason behind that is because they are such a giant pair of pants.... Like size 45 or 50 waist, I believe there is one really poor picture in a Japanese magazine. I was lucky enough to see some personal pictures a person I know took of the pants...I forgot one detail I left out of my description above, they have small unriveted cinch straps....they are probably a little older than the denim version I have, one thing we learned from the court transcripts of the King vs Levi Strauss court case....The first pants made and shipped by Levi Strauss in June 1873 were duck pants.


Posted By: silencejoe
Date Posted: 27 Nov 2012 at 7:17am
thanks Sanaome so this is the original duck your mentioned earlier? if you don't mind i quote it here.

Originally posted by Sansome Sansome wrote:

The knapava tool pocket or what ever you want to call it is from the mid to late 1880's.... Oldest oldest is from or could be from the late 1870's....the yolk less duck pants are from 1873 and as far as I can tell.... When they made the repro they put branded rivets and suspender buttons plus a arc on the back... The original duck pants that are in the archive have blank rivets and suspender buttons and no arcs on the back pocket.


Originally posted by Sansome Sansome wrote:





Posted By: Sansome
Date Posted: 27 Nov 2012 at 8:16am
No this pant is the one we found years ago^^^ it's hard to see... But this one has a yolk.... Still no arcs or riveted cinch straps^^^^^ this pair dates from 1875-76.
The Archives has one just like this one, it was found by a guy I knew.....This guy that found the pants Levi has now was killed on his motorcycle about 4 months after he found the pants.


Posted By: Dr_Heech
Date Posted: 27 Nov 2012 at 9:18am
 
 
Really great thread Mike.
So, let me get this straight : The 2010 duck pant (without the yoke) is more accurate of the 1873 original - the massive pair you mentioned pictured in 'The Jeans' Vol 1 (Jap denim bible c.'96), and the 2000 duck pant is based on the childs pair from the archives?


Posted By: Sansome
Date Posted: 27 Nov 2012 at 9:36am
Originally posted by Dr_Heech Dr_Heech wrote:

 
 

Really great thread Mike.

So, let me get this straight : The 2010 duck pant (without the yoke) is more accurate of the 1873 original - the massive pair you mentioned pictured in 'The Jeans' Vol 1 (Jap denim bible c.'96), and the 2000 duck pant is based on the childs pair from the archives?


Spot on Dr H...thanks for the heads up on that bull shit picture of the yolk less duck pant.


Posted By: Dr_Heech
Date Posted: 27 Nov 2012 at 12:33pm
Also, looking at the pics posted by silencejoe of the 2010 reissue, I noticed there's no leather washers on the rivet-backs.  They are present on the 2000 reissue -
 
 
Probably harder to define an exact time when those details were used?


Posted By: Sansome
Date Posted: 27 Nov 2012 at 1:15pm
Leather washers seem to be all over the place, Ive never seen them on the real early stuff- say 1873-76 something like that....I've seen them once in a while on late 70's and maybe 80's....they seem to be used on early 1890's duck jackets and pants....I have no idea why....on the late 1870's pieces, I've seen them on duck and denim and almost always just on the back pockets....Nonriveted found a advertisement for leather backed riveted clothing, I think the ad was from 1877....it wasn't a Levi ad but no doubt it was probably referring to Levi clothing?


Posted By: illumin8em
Date Posted: 27 Nov 2012 at 4:21pm
So these should have leather washers? I get confused with what was and what LVC has reproduced.

I have a Valencia Street pair of the 1873 ducks, and they truly fit like overalls on my skinny butt. Anyone interested in a pair?


Posted By: Sansome
Date Posted: 27 Nov 2012 at 10:54pm
Originally posted by illumin8em illumin8em wrote:

So these should have leather washers? I get confused with what was and what LVC has reproduced.

I have a Valencia Street pair of the 1873 ducks, and they truly fit like overalls on my skinny butt. Anyone interested in a pair?


It is confusing, it might help if the archives show some detail photos now and then, back in 2010 I looked at Lvc for the first time on Sufu.....Man that was confusing, I was thinking years from now, those 1873's your selling might be like a error baseball card.... And be worth boat loads of $$$$....years from now people will be saying- remember when LVC was making pants from 1891 and calling them 1873's- or maybe not


Posted By: Dr_Heech
Date Posted: 07 Dec 2012 at 12:50pm
These repro 1873 duck garments were manufactured in 2000/2001 at the Valencia street factory in San Fransisco -
 
The duck coat -
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
(now sold)
 


Posted By: mr randal
Date Posted: 07 Dec 2012 at 12:55pm
I've never seen a picture of an original of either the 1873 jacket or vest, has anyone else here?
  I think I asked Sansome about these models and he said IIRC that he's never found recognizable pieces of any garments similar to these.
 He's in the desert now, but maybe his campsite will have cell reception. If not I'm sure he'll elucidate when he gets back home.


Posted By: Dr_Heech
Date Posted: 07 Dec 2012 at 12:59pm
The duck vest.  Beautifull piece.
 
 
 
 
 


Posted By: Sansome
Date Posted: 07 Dec 2012 at 4:14pm
I'm not sure about the vest or the hunting jacket, if I remember correctly- the hunting jacket and maybe the vest are illustrated in the 1879 catalog..... It would seem that the inspiration came from the catalog and not real items, I have heard that someone has a original hunting jacket....But I've never seen it. I think you have the 1879 triple pleat blouse that was based off the 1879 catalog- I don't think this ever existed like the drawing showes... I found a mid to late 1880's triple pleat blouse in destroyed condition...this blouse had the same pockets that were on my older 1870's blouse.... The only difference I saw on the 1880's blouse was the cinch straps were higher up and riveted. I'll take a picture of the1879 catalog and send it to Mr Randal to post.


Posted By: Joseph Hill
Date Posted: 07 Dec 2012 at 7:08pm
Didn't know they ever did a vest.  Be nice to see that one come back around.


Posted By: Sansome
Date Posted: 07 Dec 2012 at 7:41pm
Larry from Hellers Cafe bought a early 1890's Levi hunting vest that has something like 80 rivets on it.... He brought it to last years inspiration show and had it hanging on one of his clothing racks for anyone who wanted to check it out.... Levi first produced hunting vests at the end of 1873.....Levi started producing blouses/jackets on February 1874.


Posted By: attackwithstones
Date Posted: 07 Dec 2012 at 8:00pm
Sansome,  is that the hunting vest that LVC reproduced in the last two years?  It had a ton of rivets in between each shotgun shell pocket.



-------------
Sell me your Mister Freedom stuff. :)


Posted By: Sansome
Date Posted: 07 Dec 2012 at 8:15pm
Originally posted by attackwithstones attackwithstones wrote:

Sansome,  is that the hunting vest that LVC reproduced in the last two years?  It had a ton of rivets in between each shotgun shell pocket.


Yea I think that's the one, it should be....and I think it has the correct label.


Posted By: Dr_Heech
Date Posted: 08 Dec 2012 at 12:06am
@ mr randal - I'm sure you posted a photo of the original 1873 duck coat on sufu.  It was a photo of it in a glass fronted wooden case, taken in the foyer of the Levi's building.  Or maybe my memoriy is shot?
@Sansome/attackwithstones - I have photos of that hunting vest, the label is in the inside of the garment and the buttons had wild dogs or boar heads on them.
 
The repro vest from 2001 is rare, I've only seen three on ebay since they were made.
Here's one, shame it's a small (comes with the book too) -
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/130814814832?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1423.l2649" rel="nofollow - http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/130814814832?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1423.l2649
 
 


Posted By: mr randal
Date Posted: 08 Dec 2012 at 7:12pm
^That was the duck popover, which I believe is dated later than 1873, though it looks very much the same.


Posted By: silencejoe
Date Posted: 09 Dec 2012 at 5:54am
there is some hunting JKT photos from Mr Rivet Head blog.

http://rivet-head.blogspot.hk/2010/03/levi-strauss-1874-canvas-hunting-jacket.html


Posted By: mr randal
Date Posted: 09 Dec 2012 at 9:27am
The jacket Rivet Head has posted there is the 1874 duck jacket repro, which we will get to in just a minute.


Posted By: killer b
Date Posted: 09 Dec 2012 at 10:48am
totally love this thread chaps. It's scratching my nerd itch like nothing else...


Posted By: attackwithstones
Date Posted: 09 Dec 2012 at 1:20pm
That is my Duck vest up on eBay.  The vest is beautiful, and the duck is more slubby than my 1873's.  I've had it for about a year and a half.  I wish I could keep it, but since I haven't worn it yet and I quit my job a few weeks ago I need it for income.  :(

-------------
Sell me your Mister Freedom stuff. :)


Posted By: Dr_Heech
Date Posted: 09 Dec 2012 at 9:38pm
Originally posted by attackwithstones attackwithstones wrote:

That is my Duck vest up on eBay.  The vest is beautiful, and the duck is more slubby than my 1873's.  I've had it for about a year and a half.  I wish I could keep it, but since I haven't worn it yet and I quit my job a few weeks ago I need it for income.  :(
 
Attack, I can totally empathise with you.  No shame - happens to us all, I may also be putting a few things up for sale after chrimbo, including the duck stuff, just so's I can pay the bills :(


Posted By: Sansome
Date Posted: 09 Dec 2012 at 11:31pm
Heech...did your duck pullover that you sold have the label on the collar and a arcuate stitch? I saw the original at the vault a few years back- I forgot those details on the original....I think Mr Randal might have some pictures of the original?


Posted By: mr randal
Date Posted: 10 Dec 2012 at 10:18am
I do, but we have the 1873 items and the 1874 duck coat to cover first.
Send me those catalog pics of them, Sansome!


Posted By: Dr_Heech
Date Posted: 10 Dec 2012 at 12:07pm
Originally posted by Sansome Sansome wrote:

Heech...did your duck pullover that you sold have the label on the collar and a arcuate stitch? I saw the original at the vault a few years back- I forgot those details on the original....I think Mr Randal might have some pictures of the original?
 
Here's a pic of the collar -
 
 
Both pockets have the arcs -
 
 
 
 
 
 
IIRC the one pocket denim version of this popover (1880/1890?) has the label placed half on the collar, unlike this one - not sure which is correct without looking at pics of the originals.


Posted By: mr randal
Date Posted: 19 Dec 2012 at 12:00am
I thought I had seen a pic of the original 1873 duck hunting coat- this picture is lifted from A Continuous Lean, is in the Levi's archives, labeled "1870s Hunters Coat made of cotton 'duck'."
 If It wasn't labeled such, I would have thought it was a rigid LVC repro. All of the details of the original that you can see are exactly like the repro. Looks like practically deadstock.
 Eerily good repro.




Posted By: mr randal
Date Posted: 19 Dec 2012 at 12:08am
Next up is the 1874 duck hunting jacket. This is the first version, from LVC Japan, from around 2008:























Posted By: mr randal
Date Posted: 19 Dec 2012 at 12:14am
LVCJ put that one out and then the following year this went up for auction on Ebay:







I don't remember all of the details, but IIRC the seller was from Japan, the jacket was identified as a Levi's jacket, and it sold to the United States. I suspect it went to Levi's, as LVC released a version of this in 2011. The rivet fronts on this jacket were blank, I believe the leather tag was illegible. 


Posted By: mr randal
Date Posted: 19 Dec 2012 at 12:27am
So far as I know Levi's hasn't spoken publicly about this jacket. 
This garment or one very like it was being sold in 1879- these images are from a 1879 catalog that Nonriveted and Sansome have images from.







Posted By: mr randal
Date Posted: 19 Dec 2012 at 12:35am
Probably everyone has seen this picture. I recently noticed that the guy on the right seems to be wearing this jacket or a very similar one- look closely and you can see the rivet placement on a high front pocket and what seems to be a rivet glinting in the armpit in exactly the same place. I've worn this jacket a bit, and when worn it hangs just as this guys jacket does. There is part of a date written on the lower left of this image but it is cut of in the version I have and I can't make it out.








Posted By: Sansome
Date Posted: 19 Dec 2012 at 10:06am
I think that all of the original duck jackets above^^^ are from the early 1890's...none of the jackets we have found have the label on the collar....My friends 1891 one pocket blouse has the label on the collar....our 1888 -89 one pocket blouse has its label on the bottom back center.


Posted By: mr randal
Date Posted: 20 Dec 2012 at 12:36am
With all due respect, I am going to disagree with Sansome in believing that the 1874 duck hunting jacket does date from the 1870s- it does look very much like the illustration in the 1879 catalog, and the leather tag could be on the inner neck rather than the outer waist because of the longer cut of this jacket.


Posted By: Sansome
Date Posted: 20 Dec 2012 at 2:04am
Originally posted by mr randal mr randal wrote:

With all due respect, I am going to disagree with Sansome in believing that the 1874 duck hunting jacket does date from the 1870s- it does look very much like the illustration in the 1879 catalog, and the leather tag could be on the inner neck rather than the outer waist because of the longer cut of this jacket.


After talking with you today and looking at the jacket for a second time- I think your right about the hunting jacket.


Posted By: mr randal
Date Posted: 20 Dec 2012 at 12:01pm
I wish we could have a look at the actual jacket, that would be helpful, huh? I really suspect it is in the Levis archive.

So as to how faithful of a repro LVC Japan made of the 1874 jacket- there are a few details that don't match the actual garment that sold on eBay, if that was indeed the actual model. The neck patch is placed lower on the repro and is not riveted. The repro doesn't have blank rivets as the original does, and I believe the original had some Interesting seams on the front that intersect the inner pockets.
The LVC 1874 that came out last year is different- it has the front seams, sew on buttons, and is made from the new Cone duck they had developed. It is also really oversized and the cut is different ftom the lvc japan repro- being wider in the torso and with very short sleeves. I don't have any good pictures of it at the moment.


Posted By: Maynard Fried-San
Date Posted: 20 Dec 2012 at 2:05pm
This article dates the Blue Eyes Mine picture as 1882. I'm not sure how valid it is:

http://www.pcgs.com/News/United-States-Gold-Coins" rel="nofollow - Blue Eyes Mine


Posted By: mr randal
Date Posted: 30 Dec 2012 at 4:43pm
I've been waiting on this in the post so I could document the more recent LVC prime take on the 1874 duck hunting jacket:















This was made in a small batch (I hear 110) last year from the special duck LVC had Cone make up to match the Hunting jacket they have in their archive. They also used this on the no-yoke 1873 duck pant batch and on the 1901 duck jumpers from three years ago.
 The sew on buttons are nice, and are actually sewn on securely for a change. Some distinct differences from the LVC Japan 1874 duck jacket pictured here earlier in pocket placement, collar shape, front seams, and overall cut. The cut of this one is more like the 1873 jacket- a wide torso with room to fill the interior game pouches, and very short sleeves (to keep your cuffs farther away from the blood?) as opposed to the trimmer, longer sleeved LVCJ variant.
 I suspect the LVC prime jacket is probably closer to what an original would look like, but the LVCJ version is a much better modern cut and very wearable.




Posted By: redchris
Date Posted: 01 Jan 2013 at 12:57pm
I had this exact jacket on sale here a couple of months ago. Size 44. no takers, went on eBay for forty quid in the end.


Posted By: mr randal
Date Posted: 01 Jan 2013 at 1:50pm
Didn't you have the 1873 version, washed and with some alterations of your own?


Posted By: Joseph Hill
Date Posted: 04 Jan 2013 at 10:58am
Cinch buckle certainly doesn't look LVC.
 
What do you suppose the mini-pockets were intended for on the above jacket?  They seem rather specialized (and important enough to have two of them).


Posted By: Shorty Long
Date Posted: 04 Jan 2013 at 11:13am
cigs

Originally posted by Joseph Hill Joseph Hill wrote:

Cinch buckle certainly doesn't look LVC.
 
What do you suppose the mini-pockets were intended for on the above jacket?  They seem rather specialized (and important enough to have two of them).


Posted By: mr randal
Date Posted: 04 Jan 2013 at 12:27pm
^i think that's right- I've heard the smaller pocket on shirts & jackets from that era called "tobacco pockets". Their being placed high on the chest is maybe because that area is least likely to be torqued or crushed when doing something intensely physical like hunting?


Posted By: Joseph Hill
Date Posted: 04 Jan 2013 at 2:54pm
Tobacco/cigarette pockets on shirts seemed pretty common, but I've never seen one on a jacket, and odd that there's two.


Posted By: mr randal
Date Posted: 04 Jan 2013 at 3:10pm
You could be out in the bush for some time stalking that perfect buck. May need backup smokes...


Posted By: redchris
Date Posted: 04 Jan 2013 at 11:56pm
Originally posted by mr randal mr randal wrote:

Didn't you have the 1873 version, washed and with some alterations of your own?


You are right, it was the 1873, 555 made at Valencia. St,
though don't recall me putting it up here with any alterations etc.


Posted By: colgems1966
Date Posted: 05 Jan 2013 at 2:12am
that canvas hunting jacket would have been used for bird or possibly small game hunting. it is not warm enough for deer hunting, and of much more importance canvas is not suitable for deer hunting it is too noisy a fabric. a deer hunter until the age of modern fabrics would traditionally wear wool. to this day i still wear a wool mackinaw when deer hunting.


Posted By: mr randal
Date Posted: 27 Jan 2013 at 3:50pm
LVC 1880 jean, confusingly, sometimes also called knappave, Nevada or Oldest Oldest:

















Posted By: mr randal
Date Posted: 27 Jan 2013 at 3:54pm
Possibly the jean pictured above was a prototype- other 1880 models labeled as being from the same year of production as the above one (2008) have differing details, higher coin pocket, hammered rivets, denim rather than cotton twill pocket bags, and sew on buttons, like this one:









Posted By: mr randal
Date Posted: 27 Jan 2013 at 4:09pm
Also, possibly, these are two different models, both labeled 1880. If so, the first one pictured above would be LVC's "Oldest Oldest", while the second one would be what they called "Knapave". Strangely, the details of the Knapave would place it as being an older model than the "Oldest Oldest", go figure.
 The Knapave has details that agree with the Harris's oldest Levi's, whereas the "Oldest Oldest" looks like it would fall somewhere later than the "Knapave" model but earlier than the LVC 1890.
 Or so I think.
 Nonriveted & Sansome- take it away!


Posted By: Sansome
Date Posted: 27 Jan 2013 at 11:38pm
Both models are from the 1880's, the first one I think is modeled after the 1879xx...I'm almost certain that its from 1889. The question we should be asking is- who named the tool pocket pant Napave? What does that mean? The tool pocket pant might not be that much older that the other- defiantly sometime in the mid to late 1880's


Posted By: setterman
Date Posted: 28 Jan 2013 at 5:36am
Originally posted by colgems1966 colgems1966 wrote:

that canvas hunting jacket would have been used for bird or possibly small game hunting. it is not warm enough for deer hunting, and of much more importance canvas is not suitable for deer hunting it is too noisy a fabric. a deer hunter until the age of modern fabrics would traditionally wear wool. to this day i still wear a wool mackinaw when deer hunting.

Have to remember the time and place this garment would have been worn.  How, and what time of year we hunt today wouldn't apply, because hunting seasons are a 20th Century invention.  When this garment was worn, if game was needed, it was shot.  And I assume it primarily would have been worn in very western states like CA, NV, AZ, NM (warm more often than cold).  And the people buying it didn't have the money to afford multiple purpose built hunting garments like today.  When we look at it today, we see a garment best suited to hunting grouse, quail, rabbits, and ducks. But it's owner back then would have worn it for hunting anything.  Also remember, big game (deer, bear, moose, elk) were hunted differently back then.  The standing hunting we do now in the east has only come into vogue in the past 20 to 30 years.  Before that, you were on the ground, putting on drives with a group of guys, and in some places using dogs for certain game like bear.  I don't think they had the cover in the American west to hunt quite that way, but they would have gone out in groups (not the romanticized single or pair of hunters we see in old ammunition and firearms posters).  They would need to get close to their prey (less than 200 yards, preferably within 100), but being quiet clothing wouldn't have the emphasis put on it today (that's mostly for archery hunters anyways).  All that being said, those two little pockets wouldn't be used to carry anything precious or that your life depended on since they don't have a flap to secure them.  Best bet is they were used to carry a tobacco pouch (whether chewing or smoking).      


-------------
I got a rocket in my pocket and roll in my jeans


Posted By: Dr_Heech
Date Posted: 28 Jan 2013 at 9:08am
Originally posted by Sansome Sansome wrote:

Both models are from the 1880's, the first one I think is modeled after the 1879xx...I'm almost certain that its from 1889. The question we should be asking is- who named the tool pocket pant Napave? What does that mean? The tool pocket pant might not be that much older that the other- defiantly sometime in the mid to late 1880's


Cant really tell which Lvc model that is (mr. randals 1st pics) as there is no back shot of it. If it is the model labelled - 'oldest/oldest', then it is indeed not the oldest by any means. I don't know if you remember Mike, but I think there was a long Sufu conversation about it - entertainment! had a pair, and after a bit of banter, decided to move the patch to the right/back, as opposed to the centre/back. John, if your reading this - can you confirm?

I believe the tool pocket 1880's model was labelled the 'Knappave' after the (secret) location of it's discovery.
The original pair found were a little like the FW/2013 cut-offs. I remember Lvc offering them as pre-distressed cut-offs which included the separate leg portions as part of a 'limited' package.

The raw version (2nd lot of pics) are the best early Lvc offering to date IMHO, apart from the 1873 (2001) duck pants.
Lvc Japan did a duck version a year later.   


Posted By: Dr_Heech
Date Posted: 28 Jan 2013 at 9:42am
Mr. randal, not sure if you have any, but I also found some pics of the rare 1886 model (S/S 2005)- which has a centrally placed two horse patch and those little pleats under the riveted part of the cinch-strap.
Sorry about the picture quality (early sufu attempts)but at least it gives the general idea. Interestingly enough, these had pale yellow stitching, rather than white, and had blueline selvedge throughout -











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