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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote HP Sauce Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Jul 2018 at 7:36am
Originally posted by killer b killer b wrote:

Originally posted by Maynard Fried-San Maynard Fried-San wrote:

One for 00 Soul re Park Hill
Some great photos, but that article is fucking gross. I suppose you could call it gentrification. Redchrises. 


killer, I don't know if that's a "gross" comment or not. My understanding is that gentrification is a label we put on redevelopments that end up pricing lower-income people out of a decent home. That's crap planning and I hope that this won't happen here.

In that respect, I agree with you that the article lets down the reader in not providing information on whether the ongoing development will be inclusive of more than one income bracket or not. Rather, the gentrification reference was left like an open question.

Me, I live in a mixed income neighbourhood (but definitely not gentrified, it's an entirely un-urban/un-hip place) and I like it that way.

(Edited to eliminate spelling vagaries introduced due to multi-tasking while typing. Oops.)

Edited by HP Sauce - 19 Jul 2018 at 8:33am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote killer b Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Jul 2018 at 7:53am
You might find Owen Hatherley's article about Park Hill in the guardian from 7 years ago fills out some of the info they seem to have missed. It's defo a gentrification project. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote killer b Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Jul 2018 at 8:09am
anyway, if you dig photos of brutalist housing estates, this set of photos from Hulme in Manchester (mostly of the legendary Crescent) will be right up your street...

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (2) Thanks(2)   Quote Maynard Fried-San Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Jul 2018 at 8:29am
It’s cool to be completely negative about gentrification, I understand that but I think it brings some positives. It can bring a wider demographic to an area - socially and economically, better shops, art, entertainment, bring old buildings and facilities back into life via re-use and may also bring a safer feel (real or perceived) to an area. I know it has negatives too - rising house prices, houses separated into flats for more profit, people decanted from council flats to make way, unwanted noise from new residents treating the area as party central, gated communities, breakdown of social networks, etc...

I’ve lived in some shitty areas, more often not through choice and I can say that I would have preferred those areas to improve rather than go downhill. Would you rather have a high street full of betting shops, pawnbrokers, Arizona Fried Chicken, convenience stores, shitty pubs and boarded up shopfronts or some nice restaurants, pubs you’d like to go in, a record shop, independent butchers, etc? I know which I’d choose.

I’m not saying gentrification is the cure but in a controlled manner (ie more organic, without large-scale developers muscling in), it can provide a catalyst for improvement, it’s when it goes too far and provides a soulless environment that excludes local residents that it’s a problem. Middle class people need somewhere to live too!

I knew the Crescents well too, I spent many a night in the PSV and Kitchen.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote killer b Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Jul 2018 at 8:37am
We all like craft beer, nice coffee and sourdough pizza, I'm not totally without mixed feelings...


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Double 0 Soul Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Jul 2018 at 1:54am
Originally posted by HP Sauce HP Sauce wrote:


killer, I don't know if that's a "gross" comment or not. My understanding is that gentrification is a label we put on redevelopments that end up pricing lower-income people out of a decent home. That's crap planning and I hope that this won't happen here.


The planning at Park Hill is an absolute fucking disgrace, you have hardworking, educated professionals who've bought into the post working class gentrification in an attempt to gain urban-cool status yet these fucking homeless scroungers get it handed to them on a plate for fuck all! they don't even have the decency to wear their Kappa tracksuit bottoms ironically.
Just because they are suffering from mental illness, drug addiction or whatever shouldn't mean they get free board and lodgings. I mean Pfft! these homeless peeps in moments of spice-haze clarity should be thanking the yuppies, the ground on which their tent is 'illegally' pitched will be rocketing in value and if these trends continue they will have a piece of cardboard and a rolled up duvet in a piss-stinking doorway by this time next year, lucky bastards!

Double 0's Park Hill mooch
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (3) Thanks(3)   Quote Double 0 Soul Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Jul 2018 at 2:58am
A fine publication for all your winter sports c**ntiness


Think yourselves lucky it wasn't a copy of this months Golf-C**t
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Maynard Fried-San Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Jul 2018 at 3:52am
Should places like Park Hill just be written off as the preserve for the homeless, mentally ill, drug addicts, problem families, etc? They will be forever sink estates, no-go areas, call them what you will, that no-one really wants to live in, anyone who can get out will. They may even be transitional areas, devoid of community, no-one feels any sense of ‘investment’ (not necessarily of the property itself, rather of the area and community). I know that I’m conjuring up extreme examples here and there are some excellent, well-functioning estates but that is the reality for some people.

The key to places like that is making them more mixed socially and economically - neither gentrification via developers such as Urban Splash (= yuppification) nor a laissez-faire policy (= sink estate) will work. I’m not sure what the solution is but there has to be some compromise to encourage different people to live more closely together. If you have a kid growing up on an estate who only knows crime, unemployment, drugs, violence, etc, where are the role models for an alternative and better life? They should be there in the community rather than the preserve of others.

Just a thought, it’s a complex situation.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote HP Sauce Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Jul 2018 at 6:35am
Originally posted by Double 0 Soul Double 0 Soul wrote:

Originally posted by HP Sauce HP Sauce wrote:


killer, I don't know if that's a "gross" comment or not. My understanding is that gentrification is a label we put on redevelopments that end up pricing lower-income people out of a decent home. That's crap planning and I hope that this won't happen here.


The planning at Park Hill is an absolute fucking disgrace, you have hardworking, educated professionals who've bought into the post working class gentrification in an attempt to gain urban-cool status yet these fucking homeless scroungers get it handed to them on a plate for fuck all! they don't even have the decency to wear their Kappa tracksuit bottoms ironically.
Just because they are suffering from mental illness, drug addiction or whatever shouldn't mean they get free board and lodgings. I mean Pfft! these homeless peeps in moments of spice-haze clarity should be thanking the yuppies, the ground on which their tent is 'illegally' pitched will be rocketing in value and if these trends continue they will have a piece of cardboard and a rolled up duvet in a piss-stinking doorway by this time next year, lucky bastards!



Thank you for the different view of Park Hill, 00.  That counts as crap planning (and probably a lack of funding, too). 

Where I live, there was a deliberate effort, as the neighbourhood grew, to ensure there was a good mix of different types of housing positioned closely together (i.e. no ghetto by dint of isolation/neglect). 

My block consists mainly of townhouses (i.e. like your terrace homes) full of federal government workers, foreign embassy staff, and seniors who don't have the time/energy to maintain a large property.   One block away, you will find cooperative housing for a lot of new immigrant families, the currently unemployed and blue-collar workers.  Right beside them are many stand-alone homes for middle-income families and retirees.  We all share a park, a grocery and a cinema.  Most of us also share the same transit buses to head downtown in the morning.  As we commiserate about the tardiness of the bus, the drudgery of our jobs, or the inclimate weather, we bond. 

One of my favourite people to talk to about her work is a Nigerian-Canadian woman who is a counsellor with the Salvation Army's downtown mission.  She's a trained psychotherapist who helps reintegrate recovering addicts back into the workforce. 

We decided to walk home together the other day and she spoke about her clients, their feelings of vulnerability and fears of rejection and failure.  She told me how protective they are of her, insisting on escorting her to the bus-stop if she's worked a late shift.  All that to say what all you Bros already know:  the Other is actually the same when you look closely enough. 

I'd like to think that empathy also explains why, when I mention what "Dave the Scot" said to me about his buddy "Marcus the Birdman" this morning, my colleagues know right away who I'm talking about. 

Dave and Marcus are two panhandlers who work in shifts outside our office.  We provide them spare change, coffee, sandwiches and home-baked snacks to every day outside our office building.  (Although Dave had an alcoholic past, he is generally sober and Marcus is just someone who loves birds and struggles with paranoid schizophrenia).   Dave is a particularly important anchor for me and the other analysts.  He looks out for Marcus and knows we worry if he disappears for a few days so Dave always makes sure to announce when he's going off on a landscaping job.  He is a good man and a solid sounding board.

Is Dave and Marcus's situation ideal?  No.  But, according to them, it's  how they make a living and they take their work seriously.  I am comforted by seeing others besides myself take a moment to sit down beside one or both them to ask how they are doing and to share a joke about the bylaw officer towing away some idiot's Benz parked illegally across the street.  We may not earn our bread the same way, but we are definitely part of the same community.

Like you say, 00, Park Hill is not about creating a community from diversity.  It's about colonization.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Double 0 Soul Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Jul 2018 at 7:07am
If smackheads had a registered voting address Brexit would have been far worse/better (whichever is appropriate) folks say the working classes have been victims of the UK's immigration policy but its nothing compared to heroin users, they used to have all the best begging spots around the city but nowadays they're getting totally outplayed by organised often Romanian gangs working a carefully orchestrated shift rota system so they can beg around the clock, they don't leave their spot until somebody relieves them of their duties, the less than organised smackhead doesn't get a look in anymore....

It is indeed a tricky one Martin, here's my pov...
I hate to say this because im such a make do and mend kind of fellow but they should consider removing the listing status and knock the rest of it down, it was built with a vision/purpose in mind, ie- to give reasonably priced housing to many of Sheffields working classes, there's no industry anymore and the working class are all but an endangered species here replaced in part by Thatcher's Jeremy Kyle generation who tend to live on the outshirts rather than the inner-city. I can't see an industrial resurgence anytime soon so its reason to exist is completely defunct.
Its actually set in front of quite a nice leafy suburban area between Norfolk Park and the once grand Midland Station, the lower income manual workers would be housed in Park Hill but the surrounding area has large parks built by philanthropic industrialists for the workers to give them green spaces with fresh air, like many city parks these are encompassed by large Victorian houses built for the middle-class factory owners and management. PH is considered a blot on the landscape by many, i think they should keep the newly developed frontage for posterity, also keeping the historians happy, demolish what remains and build a new environmentally friendly estate for the cities modern day requirements, building houses rather than cheap flats, (if you want a flat/apartment the city center is already awash with them, re-developed breweries, cutlery works, old court houses silversmiths.. you name it) some large houses, some small, some (no right to buy) social for all pockets, Park Hill will never give you the much needed social-economic mix because all the flats are exactly the same size and there are 1000's of them.
Some folks love it, but not many, most folks hate it (i have mixed feelings) but above everything else it doesn't work for the cities modern day requirements, its only the frontage which has been re-developed by Splash, i bet its less than 10% the estate, its fucking enormous and sprawling behind what is seen from the road.
I would keep the newly developed frontage for posterity and demolish the rest, offer tax incentives to build and tax the profits to house the homeless.

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